Kerry priest Fr Seán Sheehy has claimed the Irish constitutional referendums on marriage equality and on abortion were fixed.
The controversial cleric appeared on two RTÉ radio programmes today, first sparing with Bryan Dobson on RTÉ’s News at One and then telling Liveline listeners he was merely preaching “the word of God” as all priests are “obligated” to do so.
More than 30 parishioners walked out of mass at St Mary’s Church in Listowel over the weekend after Fr Sheehy, in his homily, condemned transgenderism, same-sex couples, and supplying condoms to teenagers.
He was asked by Liveline host Joe Duffy: “So the referendums that took place in this country over the last 10 years on contraception, divorce, abortion and gay marriage, they were all fixed?”
He said: “Absolutely, guaranteed there was an agenda, even the way the ballots were written. The groups were stacked with people who are pro those things and had their own agenda; they didn’t really bring in the people on the opposite side at all to give their opinions.”Mr Duffy then asked: “Was the result fixed?”
Fr Sheehy said: “The result actually was of people who were completely misinformed. You had people in America who actually paid people’s fare to come to Ireland to vote in favour of abortion.
“You had an agenda that was really being pushed and the sad point about it is that the hierarchy was mute: they never educated the people at all.
“I believe a lot of those votes were misled. People actually have said to me that they actually voted ‘Yes’ thinking that the yes was to keep the amendment.
“The national media had its own agenda, my agenda is that of the Scriptures and the teachings of the church.”
Fr Sheehy equated homosexuality with having a disability and said there were only “two genders, male and female, that’s it”.
Mr Duffy asked: “Are you saying homosexuality is akin to a disability?”
The cleric said: “Well it is a disability because it leans a person in an abnormal direction in terms of expressing sexuality.
“Telling little boys, they can become girls and telling little girls they can become boys, that is lunacy, that’s insanity.
“God loves the sinner, but he hates the sin. The church has no problem with people who have a gay orientation; what the church basically says is that a sexual relationship between gay people is a mortal sin.
“The church says the same thing about anyone who engages in sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman.”
Earlier, RTÉ News at One anchor Mr Dobson conducted a fractious and at times chaotic interview with Fr Sheehy.
The pair went toe-to-toe live on air with the priest declaring that sometimes the “truth hurts”, while Mr Dobson argued that maybe in this situation, the medium really is the message.
Here is a full transcript of the interview:
Brian Dobson (BD): A very good afternoon to you Fr Sheehy and thanks for taking our call. Are you standing by the comments in your homily?
Fr Seán Sheehy (SS): I am because it's based on the Scriptures and the teaching of the Church. You know, the church has told bishops and priests to base their homilies on the Scriptures that the Church has chosen for each Sunday. So, the Scripture this past Sunday actually focused on God's called to sinners; highlighted in the story of Jesus's encounter with the tax collectors Zacchaeus. And I basically said, you know, from the Book of Wisdom, for example, which was the first reading, where God reveals himself through the author wisdom as being merciful, he can do all things and he said he does all things and he calls human beings, he says little by little to correct those who offend, to admonish and remind them of how they have sinned, that they may abstain from evil and trust in the Lord.
BD: And then Fr Sheehy by what authority do you decide who are the sinners?
SS: I didn't, and in fact I also explained to the people, I said Jesus said that we must love the Lord our God with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind and all our strength.
BD: But you identify...
SS: Hold on now, hold on...
BD: Sorry Fr Sheehy this not a homily, this is an interview.
SS: Hold on one second, I want to explain the basis of my homily.
BD: And I’ve asked you a question, by what authority do you decide who are sinners or who aren’t?
SS: It wasn’t my authority, it was the authority of the church and the authority of the scriptures.
BD: And you reject the authority of the Bishop [Ray Browne] then do you?
SS: I did not reject the authority of the Bishop at all, because I was based on the scripture and the teaching of the Church, which gives me the authority to preach the gospel. That’s the work of a priest.
BD: So, the Bishop then when he apologises...
SS: Would you please listen?
BD: No, I’m sorry Fr Sheehy I’m going to ask...
SS: Would you please listen to what I’m saying?
BD: I can hear you quite clearly, I’m asking…
SS: You’re not listening. You’re typical media, you’re trying to swing things the way you want them yourself.
BD: Do you accept the authority of Bishop Ray Browne?
SS: Of course I accept the authority, but by the same token, when he says to me, that that's not the Christian faith, then he needs to read the Catechism and he also needs to read the Scriptures as well. Bishop or no bishop, and that's a reality. He is obliged to follow the Scriptures, he is obliged to follow the Catechism teaching of the Church.
BD: But he has apologised to all who are offended, he has described your remarks as…
SS: Of course he has, do you know why? I told him myself, I said you have sacrificed the truth in order to appease people who do not want to face the reality of sin. And I said sin is embedded in the culture, it is enshrined in the legislation.
BD: And who’s truth is that Fr Sheehy? It’s your truth.
SS: It’s a fact. It’s a fact. Why would people leave when they hear the Gospel? Only because they don't want to hear. People walked away from Jesus. Did he follow them? No.
BD: Well, sorry Fr Sheehy, if people walked away from you, I presume you're not comparing yourself to Jesus Christ?
SS: I certainly am not but I say people walked away from the same word that Jesus spoke himself. They weren’t walking away from me, they were actually walking away from Jesus Christ himself. Which is why I said to the people, may the Lord help them because they need help. If we don't confront our sinfulness, which is certainly not done very much in this country, then there is no hope for the country. I also said to the people as well, that when the HSE sent out a van, to hand out condoms to young people, I said that’s sin because they're promoting promiscuity, and that's a fact.
BD: Well, it’s a perfectly legal thing to do.
SS: Excuse me?
BD: It’s a perfectly legal thing to do.
SS: What do you mean legal? Legality and morality are not always the same you know. When you had, I saw that in America for example, way back in the 70s when school boys decided, that they were going to reduce promiscuity by handing out condoms to boys. Instead, it tripled and quadrupled. You’re promoting promiscuity.
BD: Well maybe Fr Sheehy we can stick to Ireland in 2022. Do you except Fr Sheehy, the Church’s teaching in very many areas, including around homosexuality, people who are transgender, that it is evolving? We've seen that for example, in the submission for the Irish church..
SS: What do you mean it’s evolving?
BD: It changes, it changes.
SS: Excuse me, where are you coming from? The Church teaching does not change. It was the same yesterday, today, and would be the very same tomorrow. And what the Church taught is based on the Scriptures and the scripture do not change. That's what people don't seem to understand
BD: Did the Pope not say…
SS: Hold on, they think they can change the Church to suit themselves. That’s not what it’s about at all.
BD: Did the Pope not say, who am I to judge when talking about homosexuality?
SS: Absolutely. we don't, as the Scriptures tell us in this Church teaching God loves the sinner but he hates the sin. And so therefore, then we need to identify what we should be fighting against and what we should hate. So that we can repent and seek forgiveness and have the life that Jesus wants us to have, especially eternal life.
BD: We’re seeing for example Fr Sheehy in some Catholic churches in the United States and in Germany, priests are blessing same sex unions.
SS: They are, but by the same token, they are operating on their own authority, not on the Church's authority. Pope Francis himself said you cannot bless sin. He said that himself clearly regarding same sex marriage.
BD: We’re back to this question: you’re the one who is defining what is a sin.
SS: I am not defining what is sin. Sin is already defined by the teaching of the Church and by the Scriptures. It's already there and a sin, as I said before, is not loving God with all our mind, heart, soul, body and strength. And certainly homosexuality, I mean sex outside of marriage is definitely defined as a sin by the Church and by the Bible as well.
BD: At the same time, we have the Pope saying that although the Church can't accept same sex marriage, it can support civil union, laws aimed at giving people equality.
SS: No, that’s basically to protect the civil rights of individuals, but by the same token, that's not, that's not promoting marriage, that’s no promoting a sexual relationship between two people who are either lesbian or homosexual.
Actually, yesterday a man called me. He said, ‘Look I'm a young man’, he said, ‘in my 30s’, and he said, ‘I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart’, he says, ‘for your homily’. He says, ‘because I needed that’ he said, ‘to support me’, he said, ‘in striving to live the Christian life’. That came from a man who had homosexual attraction himself.
BD: But as you asserted, other members of the congregation walked out during the course of your homily…
SS: And why did they walk out? Because they did not want to face either their own sinfulness or the sinfulness of the members of their family, and that's the problem.
BD: And who are you Fr Sheehy to judge them?
SS: I’m not judging them at all.
BD: But you are. You’ve just told us why you believe they walked out on your homily.
SS: No, I didn't say I believe. Don't put words in my mouth, please. I said they either don't want to confront sin in themselves, or they don't want to confront sin in their families. It’s one or the other, I didn’t say I believe that they were sinners, I didn’t say that their family were sinners. I said, obviously they didn’t want to confront it in themselves or their families and that’s why they walked out.
BD: There we’ll leave it Fr Seán Sheehy…
SS: You seen we also live in a culture today where people can’t stand the truth. You know the truth hurts but it will set us free.
BD: Maybe sometimes it’s
how the message is delivered. We’ll leave it there. Fr Seán Sheehy on
the line from Kerry. Thanks for that.