In an extraordinarily candid interview with Peter Seewald, Benedict XVI discusses
the scandals that have rocked the Catholic Church, papal fallibility, the
saints he calls friends, and a fondness for old films
On your 78th birthday, in 2005, you said how much you were looking forward
to your retirement. Three days later, you were leader of the universal
Church, with 1.2 billion followers. Not exactly a project that one saves for
his old age.
Actually, I had expected finally to have some peace and quiet. The fact that I suddenly found myself facing this tremendous task was, as everybody knows, a shock for me. The responsibility is, in fact, enormous.
You said later there was a moment when you felt just as though a “guillotine” was coming down on you.
Yes, the guillotine thought occurred to me; it falls down and hits you. I had
been so sure that this office was not my calling, and that God would grant
me some peace and quiet after strenuous years. But then I could only say to
myself: God’s will is apparently otherwise, and something new and completely
different is beginning for me. He will be with me.
What was going through your head in the so-called Room of Tears [the small red room in the Vatican next to the Sistine Chapel where the elected pope dons his cassock for the first time], where so many new pontiffs are said to have broken down? Does one wonder: why me? What does God want of me?
Actually, at that moment, one is first of all occupied by very practical, external things. One has to deal with the robes and such. Moreover, I knew that very soon I would have to say a few words out on the balcony, and I began to think about what I could say. Besides, even at the moment when it hit me, all I was able to say to the Lord was simply: “What are you doing with me? Now the responsibility is yours. You must lead me! I can’t do it. If you wanted me, then you must also help me!” In this sense, I stood, let us say, in an urgent dialogue relationship with the Lord: if he does the one thing, he must also do the other.
Did Pope John Paul II want to have you as his successor?
That I do not know. I think he left it entirely up to the dear Lord.
Nonetheless, he did not allow you to leave office. That could be taken as an “argumentum e silentio”, a silent argument for his favourite candidate.
He did want to keep me in office; that is well-known. As my 75th birthday approached, which is the age limit when one submits one’s resignation [as required by church law], he said to me: “You do not have to write the letter at all, for I want to have you to the end.” That was the great and undeserved benevolence he showed me from the very beginning. He had read my Introduction to Christianity (published in 1968). Evidently, it was an important book for him. By the time he became Pope, he had made up his mind to call me to Rome as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He had placed a great, very cordial and profound trust in me, as the guarantee, so to speak, that we would travel the right course in the faith.
You visited Pope John Paul II on his deathbed. What, if anything, did he say to you?
He was suffering much and, nevertheless, very alert. He said nothing more, though. I asked him for his blessing, which he gave me. So we parted with a cordial handshake, conscious that that was our last meeting.
You did not want to become a bishop, you did not want to become prefect, you did not want to become Pope. Isn’t it frightening when things repeatedly
happen quite against your own will?
It is like this: when a man says “yes” during his priestly ordination, he may have some idea of what his own charism [spiritual qualification] could be, but he also knows: I have placed myself into the hands of the bishop and ultimately of the Lord. I cannot pick and choose what I want. In the end, I must allow myself to be led. I had, in fact, the notion that being a theology professor was my charism, and I was very happy when my idea became a reality.
But it was also clear to me: I am always in the Lord’s hands, and I must also be prepared for things that I do not want. In this sense it was certainly surprising suddenly to be snatched away and no longer to be able to follow my own path.
But, as I said, the fundamental “yes” also contained the thought that I remain at the Lord’s disposal and perhaps will also have to do things someday that I myself would not like.
You are now the most powerful Pope of all time. Never before has the Catholic Church had more believers, never before such extension, literally to the ends of the earth.
Naturally, these statistics are important. They indicate how widespread the Church is and how large this communion is, which encompasses races and peoples, continents, cultures, and people of every kind. But the Pope does not have power because of these numbers.
Why not?
Communion with the Pope is something of a different sort, as is membership in the Church, of course. Among those 1.2 billion Catholics are many who inwardly are not there. Saint Augustine said there are many outside who seem to be inside, and there are many inside who seem to be outside.
In a matter like faith – like membership in the Catholic Church – inside and outside are mysteriously intertwined with each other. Stalin was right in saying that the Pope has no divisions and cannot issue commands. Nor does he have a big business in which all the faithful of the Church are his employees or his subordinates. In that respect, the Pope is, on the one hand, a completely powerless man. On the other hand, he bears a great responsibility.
He is to a certain extent the leader, the representative, and at the same time the one responsible for making sure that the faith that keeps people together is believed, that it remains alive, and that its identity is inviolate. But only the Lord himself has the power to keep people in the faith as well.
For the Catholic Church, the Pope is the “Vicarius Christi”, Christ’s representative on earth. Can you really speak for Jesus?
In proclaiming the faith and in administering the sacraments, every priest speaks on behalf of Jesus Christ, for Jesus Christ. Christ entrusted his Word to the Church. This Word lives in the Church. And if I accept interiorly the faith of this Church and live, speak and think on the basis of it, when I proclaim Him, then I speak for Him — even though, of course, there can always be shortcomings in the details. The important thing is that I do not present my ideas, but rather try to think and to live the Church’s faith, to act in obedience to his mandate.
Is the Pope really “infallible”, in the sense that the media sometimes bandy that term about? An absolute ruler whose thinking and will are law?
It goes without saying that the Pope can have private opinions that are wrong. But when he speaks as the supreme pastor of the Church, fully aware of his responsibility, then he no longer says something that is personally his, whatever happens to occur to him. Then, conscious of this great responsibility and at the same time of the Lord’s protection, he knows that he is not misleading the Church in such a decision but, rather, is guaranteeing its unity with the past, the present, and the future and, above all, with the Lord. This is what it is about, and this is also what other Christian communities sense.
Acting in contrary ways is a feature of your entire life story. It began in your childhood home, where resistance to atheism was a hallmark of your family’s Christian life. In the seminary, you were helped by a rector who was detained at Dachau. As a priest, you began in a parish in Munich, where both your predecessors were executed by the Nazis for fighting in the Resistance. During the Council, you opposed the excessively narrow preliminary texts of the Church leadership. As a bishop, you warned about the dangers of an affluent society. As a cardinal, you fought against modification of core Christian doctrines by trends foreign to the faith. Does this contrariness also influence the way in which you are shaping your pontificate?
Naturally, experience leaves its mark on thought and action. I was not always simply against things, exclusively and as a matter of principle. There were many wonderful situations of agreement. Ultimately, someone who is always only in opposition could probably not endure life at all.
But, at the same time, the Gospel stands in opposition to powerful constellations. In my childhood and youth, until the end of the war, of course, this was so in an especially drastic way. In the years after [the social revolutions of] 1968, the Christian faith came into conflict with a new concept of society, so that it repeatedly had to stand against powerful, triumphal opinions. Enduring hostility and offering resistance, to bring to light what is positive, are therefore part of it.
Has your faith changed since becoming responsible for Christ’s flock as the supreme shepherd? Sometimes people get the impression that now it has become more mysterious somehow, more mystical.
I am no mystic. But it is correct that as Pope one has even more cause to pray and to entrust oneself entirely to God. For I see very well that almost everything I have to do is something I myself cannot do at all. That fact already forces me, so to speak, to place myself in the Lord’s hands and to say to him: “You do it if you want it!” In this sense, prayer and contact with God are now even more necessary, more natural and self-evident than before.
And how does Pope Benedict pray?
As far as the Pope is concerned, he too is a simple beggar before God – even more than all other people. Naturally, I always pray first and foremost to our Lord, with whom I am united simply by old acquaintance, so to speak. But I also invoke the saints. I am friends with Augustine, with Bonaventure, with Thomas Aquinas. One says to such saints: “Help me!” In this sense, I commend myself to the communion of saints. With them, strengthened by them, I then talk with the dear Lord also, begging, for the most part, but also in thanksgiving – or quite simply being joyful.
The Pope on... where he gets his energy at 83
The demands of this job really overtax an 83-year-old man. Thank God there are many good co-workers. Everything is developed and implemented in a common effort. I trust that our dear Lord will give me as much strength as I need to be able to do what is necessary. But I also notice that my forces are diminishing.
Of course, one must organise one’s time correctly. And make sure that one gets enough rest.
So that then one is suitably alert at the times when one is needed. In short: so that one follows the rhythm of the day in a disciplined way and knows when one will need energy.
And does he use his exercise bike, which was set up by his former physician?
No, I don’t get to it at all - and don’t need it at the moment, thank God.
The Pope on... dealing with scandals within the church
Right now, in the midst of the scandals, we have experienced what it means to be very stunned by how wretched the Church is, by how much her members fail to follow Christ. That is the one side, which we are forced to experience for our humiliation, for our real humility.
The other side is that, in spite of everything, he does not release his grip on the Church. In spite of the weakness of the people in whom he shows himself, he keeps the Church in his grasp, he raises up saints in her, and makes himself present through them. I believe that these two feelings belong together: the deep shock over the wretchedness, the sinfulness of the Church – and the deep shock over the fact that he doesn’t drop this instrument, but that he works with it; that he never ceases to show himself through and in the Church.
The Pope on... drugs
Many, many bishops, above all from Latin America, tell me that wherever the road of drug production and trafficking passes – and that includes large sectors of these countries – it is as if an evil monster had its hand on the country and had corrupted the people. I believe we do not always have an adequate idea of the power of this serpent of drug trafficking and consumption that spans the globe. It destroys youth, it destroys families, it leads to violence and endangers the future of entire nations.
This, too, is one of the terrible responsibilities of the West: that it uses drugs and that it thereby creates countries that have to supply it, which in the end exhausts and destroys them. A craving for happiness has developed that cannot content itself with things as they are. And that then flees into the devil’s paradise, if you will, and destroys people all around.
And then there is a further problem. The destruction that sex tourism wreaks on our young people, the bishops say, is something we cannot even begin to imagine. The destructive processes at work in that are extraordinary and are born from the arrogance and the boredom and the false freedom of the Western world.
You see, man strives for eternal joy; he would like pleasure in the extreme, would like what is eternal. But when there is no God, it is not granted to him and it cannot be. Then he himself
must now create something that is fictitious, a false eternity.
The Pope on... his spare time
Of course, even in his free time [the Pope] must study and read documents. There is always a great deal of work left over. But with the papal family, with the four women from the Memores Domini community [who live in the papal apartments and see to the Pope’s household needs] and the two secretaries, there are meals in common, too. Those are moments of relaxation.
I watch the news with the secretaries, but sometimes we watch a DVD together as a group.
There is a very beautiful film [Two Suitcases] about St Josephine Bakhita, an African woman, which we watched recently. And then we like to watch Don Camillo and Peppone [a series of 1950s films featuring a priest constantly at odds with the communist mayor, below].
We celebrate Christmas together, listen to the holiday music, and exchange gifts. The feast days of our patron saints are celebrated, and occasionally we also sing Evening Prayer together. Besides our common meals, there is, above all, Holy Mass in the morning. That is an especially important moment in which we are all with each other in a particularly intense way in the light of the Lord.
The Pope on... his clothes
My Junghans watch, which I always wear, belonged to my sister, who left it to me when she died.
[On always wearing a cassock, even in his free time]. That is a legacy left to me by the former second secretary of Pope John Paul II, Monsignor Mieczysław Mokrzycki, who told me: “The Pope always wore a cassock, and so must you.”
What was going through your head in the so-called Room of Tears [the small red room in the Vatican next to the Sistine Chapel where the elected pope dons his cassock for the first time], where so many new pontiffs are said to have broken down? Does one wonder: why me? What does God want of me?
Actually, at that moment, one is first of all occupied by very practical, external things. One has to deal with the robes and such. Moreover, I knew that very soon I would have to say a few words out on the balcony, and I began to think about what I could say. Besides, even at the moment when it hit me, all I was able to say to the Lord was simply: “What are you doing with me? Now the responsibility is yours. You must lead me! I can’t do it. If you wanted me, then you must also help me!” In this sense, I stood, let us say, in an urgent dialogue relationship with the Lord: if he does the one thing, he must also do the other.
Did Pope John Paul II want to have you as his successor?
That I do not know. I think he left it entirely up to the dear Lord.
Nonetheless, he did not allow you to leave office. That could be taken as an “argumentum e silentio”, a silent argument for his favourite candidate.
He did want to keep me in office; that is well-known. As my 75th birthday approached, which is the age limit when one submits one’s resignation [as required by church law], he said to me: “You do not have to write the letter at all, for I want to have you to the end.” That was the great and undeserved benevolence he showed me from the very beginning. He had read my Introduction to Christianity (published in 1968). Evidently, it was an important book for him. By the time he became Pope, he had made up his mind to call me to Rome as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He had placed a great, very cordial and profound trust in me, as the guarantee, so to speak, that we would travel the right course in the faith.
You visited Pope John Paul II on his deathbed. What, if anything, did he say to you?
He was suffering much and, nevertheless, very alert. He said nothing more, though. I asked him for his blessing, which he gave me. So we parted with a cordial handshake, conscious that that was our last meeting.
You did not want to become a bishop, you did not want to become prefect, you did not want to become Pope. Isn’t it frightening when things repeatedly
happen quite against your own will?
It is like this: when a man says “yes” during his priestly ordination, he may have some idea of what his own charism [spiritual qualification] could be, but he also knows: I have placed myself into the hands of the bishop and ultimately of the Lord. I cannot pick and choose what I want. In the end, I must allow myself to be led. I had, in fact, the notion that being a theology professor was my charism, and I was very happy when my idea became a reality.
But it was also clear to me: I am always in the Lord’s hands, and I must also be prepared for things that I do not want. In this sense it was certainly surprising suddenly to be snatched away and no longer to be able to follow my own path.
But, as I said, the fundamental “yes” also contained the thought that I remain at the Lord’s disposal and perhaps will also have to do things someday that I myself would not like.
You are now the most powerful Pope of all time. Never before has the Catholic Church had more believers, never before such extension, literally to the ends of the earth.
Naturally, these statistics are important. They indicate how widespread the Church is and how large this communion is, which encompasses races and peoples, continents, cultures, and people of every kind. But the Pope does not have power because of these numbers.
Why not?
Communion with the Pope is something of a different sort, as is membership in the Church, of course. Among those 1.2 billion Catholics are many who inwardly are not there. Saint Augustine said there are many outside who seem to be inside, and there are many inside who seem to be outside.
In a matter like faith – like membership in the Catholic Church – inside and outside are mysteriously intertwined with each other. Stalin was right in saying that the Pope has no divisions and cannot issue commands. Nor does he have a big business in which all the faithful of the Church are his employees or his subordinates. In that respect, the Pope is, on the one hand, a completely powerless man. On the other hand, he bears a great responsibility.
He is to a certain extent the leader, the representative, and at the same time the one responsible for making sure that the faith that keeps people together is believed, that it remains alive, and that its identity is inviolate. But only the Lord himself has the power to keep people in the faith as well.
For the Catholic Church, the Pope is the “Vicarius Christi”, Christ’s representative on earth. Can you really speak for Jesus?
In proclaiming the faith and in administering the sacraments, every priest speaks on behalf of Jesus Christ, for Jesus Christ. Christ entrusted his Word to the Church. This Word lives in the Church. And if I accept interiorly the faith of this Church and live, speak and think on the basis of it, when I proclaim Him, then I speak for Him — even though, of course, there can always be shortcomings in the details. The important thing is that I do not present my ideas, but rather try to think and to live the Church’s faith, to act in obedience to his mandate.
Is the Pope really “infallible”, in the sense that the media sometimes bandy that term about? An absolute ruler whose thinking and will are law?
It goes without saying that the Pope can have private opinions that are wrong. But when he speaks as the supreme pastor of the Church, fully aware of his responsibility, then he no longer says something that is personally his, whatever happens to occur to him. Then, conscious of this great responsibility and at the same time of the Lord’s protection, he knows that he is not misleading the Church in such a decision but, rather, is guaranteeing its unity with the past, the present, and the future and, above all, with the Lord. This is what it is about, and this is also what other Christian communities sense.
Acting in contrary ways is a feature of your entire life story. It began in your childhood home, where resistance to atheism was a hallmark of your family’s Christian life. In the seminary, you were helped by a rector who was detained at Dachau. As a priest, you began in a parish in Munich, where both your predecessors were executed by the Nazis for fighting in the Resistance. During the Council, you opposed the excessively narrow preliminary texts of the Church leadership. As a bishop, you warned about the dangers of an affluent society. As a cardinal, you fought against modification of core Christian doctrines by trends foreign to the faith. Does this contrariness also influence the way in which you are shaping your pontificate?
Naturally, experience leaves its mark on thought and action. I was not always simply against things, exclusively and as a matter of principle. There were many wonderful situations of agreement. Ultimately, someone who is always only in opposition could probably not endure life at all.
But, at the same time, the Gospel stands in opposition to powerful constellations. In my childhood and youth, until the end of the war, of course, this was so in an especially drastic way. In the years after [the social revolutions of] 1968, the Christian faith came into conflict with a new concept of society, so that it repeatedly had to stand against powerful, triumphal opinions. Enduring hostility and offering resistance, to bring to light what is positive, are therefore part of it.
Has your faith changed since becoming responsible for Christ’s flock as the supreme shepherd? Sometimes people get the impression that now it has become more mysterious somehow, more mystical.
I am no mystic. But it is correct that as Pope one has even more cause to pray and to entrust oneself entirely to God. For I see very well that almost everything I have to do is something I myself cannot do at all. That fact already forces me, so to speak, to place myself in the Lord’s hands and to say to him: “You do it if you want it!” In this sense, prayer and contact with God are now even more necessary, more natural and self-evident than before.
And how does Pope Benedict pray?
As far as the Pope is concerned, he too is a simple beggar before God – even more than all other people. Naturally, I always pray first and foremost to our Lord, with whom I am united simply by old acquaintance, so to speak. But I also invoke the saints. I am friends with Augustine, with Bonaventure, with Thomas Aquinas. One says to such saints: “Help me!” In this sense, I commend myself to the communion of saints. With them, strengthened by them, I then talk with the dear Lord also, begging, for the most part, but also in thanksgiving – or quite simply being joyful.
The Pope on... where he gets his energy at 83
The demands of this job really overtax an 83-year-old man. Thank God there are many good co-workers. Everything is developed and implemented in a common effort. I trust that our dear Lord will give me as much strength as I need to be able to do what is necessary. But I also notice that my forces are diminishing.
Of course, one must organise one’s time correctly. And make sure that one gets enough rest.
So that then one is suitably alert at the times when one is needed. In short: so that one follows the rhythm of the day in a disciplined way and knows when one will need energy.
And does he use his exercise bike, which was set up by his former physician?
No, I don’t get to it at all - and don’t need it at the moment, thank God.
The Pope on... dealing with scandals within the church
Right now, in the midst of the scandals, we have experienced what it means to be very stunned by how wretched the Church is, by how much her members fail to follow Christ. That is the one side, which we are forced to experience for our humiliation, for our real humility.
The other side is that, in spite of everything, he does not release his grip on the Church. In spite of the weakness of the people in whom he shows himself, he keeps the Church in his grasp, he raises up saints in her, and makes himself present through them. I believe that these two feelings belong together: the deep shock over the wretchedness, the sinfulness of the Church – and the deep shock over the fact that he doesn’t drop this instrument, but that he works with it; that he never ceases to show himself through and in the Church.
The Pope on... drugs
Many, many bishops, above all from Latin America, tell me that wherever the road of drug production and trafficking passes – and that includes large sectors of these countries – it is as if an evil monster had its hand on the country and had corrupted the people. I believe we do not always have an adequate idea of the power of this serpent of drug trafficking and consumption that spans the globe. It destroys youth, it destroys families, it leads to violence and endangers the future of entire nations.
This, too, is one of the terrible responsibilities of the West: that it uses drugs and that it thereby creates countries that have to supply it, which in the end exhausts and destroys them. A craving for happiness has developed that cannot content itself with things as they are. And that then flees into the devil’s paradise, if you will, and destroys people all around.
And then there is a further problem. The destruction that sex tourism wreaks on our young people, the bishops say, is something we cannot even begin to imagine. The destructive processes at work in that are extraordinary and are born from the arrogance and the boredom and the false freedom of the Western world.
You see, man strives for eternal joy; he would like pleasure in the extreme, would like what is eternal. But when there is no God, it is not granted to him and it cannot be. Then he himself
must now create something that is fictitious, a false eternity.
The Pope on... his spare time
Of course, even in his free time [the Pope] must study and read documents. There is always a great deal of work left over. But with the papal family, with the four women from the Memores Domini community [who live in the papal apartments and see to the Pope’s household needs] and the two secretaries, there are meals in common, too. Those are moments of relaxation.
I watch the news with the secretaries, but sometimes we watch a DVD together as a group.
There is a very beautiful film [Two Suitcases] about St Josephine Bakhita, an African woman, which we watched recently. And then we like to watch Don Camillo and Peppone [a series of 1950s films featuring a priest constantly at odds with the communist mayor, below].
We celebrate Christmas together, listen to the holiday music, and exchange gifts. The feast days of our patron saints are celebrated, and occasionally we also sing Evening Prayer together. Besides our common meals, there is, above all, Holy Mass in the morning. That is an especially important moment in which we are all with each other in a particularly intense way in the light of the Lord.
The Pope on... his clothes
My Junghans watch, which I always wear, belonged to my sister, who left it to me when she died.
[On always wearing a cassock, even in his free time]. That is a legacy left to me by the former second secretary of Pope John Paul II, Monsignor Mieczysław Mokrzycki, who told me: “The Pope always wore a cassock, and so must you.”
SIC: TC/UK