Friday, March 20, 2009

Vatican clamps down on Killala Latin Mass move

A high-profile Vatican office has ordered Bishop John Fleming to make provision for the traditional Latin Mass in his Killala diocese.

The move, from the powerful 'Ecclesia Dei' Commission comes after the Killala Council of Priests decided that no provision should be made for the celebration of the Mass in the Extraordinary Form.

In July 2007, Pope Benedict's letter, Summorum Pontificum, eased restrictions on the pre-Vatican II Mass, the so-called Tridentine Rite and established that any Catholic priest can celebrate the traditional Latin Mass without first seeking the permission of his bishop.

Prior to the coming into force of Summorum Pontificum bishops had the right to restrict access to the Latin Mass.

Initially, the Killala Council of Priests, an advisory body made up of both elected members and priests appointed by Bishop Fleming, advised that no provision should be made for the Latin Mass pending a request for clarification from the Vatican on aspects of the Pope's letter.

This advice was accepted by Bishop Fleming and an announcement made that the Mass would be unavailable in the Killala diocese.

However, The Irish Catholic has learned that the matter came to the attention of the Holy See as a number of people in Killala wrote to the Vatican to express their frustration at the lack of provision.

The Irish Catholic also understands that a number of diocesan priests who believed the decision countermanded papal legislation, contacted Bishop Fleming to register discontent.

The 'Ecclesia Dei' Commission, headed by Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, then wrote to Bishop Fleming insisting that the restriction was forbidden under Church law since Pope Benedict had made universal provision for the availability of the Mass in the extraordinary form.

In its letter, the Commission insisted that neither Bishop Fleming, nor the Council of Priests, had the right to place a restriction on a right approved by the Pope.

Bishop Fleming has now designated the Church of the Assumption, Ardagh, Crossmolina, Co Mayo as the centre for the traditional Mass in the Killala diocese and the celebrant will be Fr John Loftus, a priest of the diocese.

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(Source: IC)


Anonymous said...

Doesn't he look a bit like one of the brothers in the SINGING PRIESTS?

Jerry said...

Is this being done in the Spirit of Vatican II or the Spirit of Summorum Pontificum?

Jerry O

Anonymous said...

Peter has spoken. The matter is settled.

Anonymous said...

Well done Bishop Fleming in banning the Latin Mass in his diocese.

Has the Church rejected the teaching and spirit of Vatican II to such an extent that the Latin Mass has to be said?

Most people under 50 would regard the Latin mumblings as alien and incomprehensible. Are the Latin Mass supporters afraid of worshipping in a language they and othr can understand?

Anonymous said...

The bishop's decision is still against the Motu Proprio because the Motu gives any pastor the right to celebrate the ancient Mass in his parish. The idea of designating a church for this purpose is fine but that does not mean that any pastor can't celebrate the ancient Mass in his parish. I think the Holy Father has to be more forceful agains this recalcitrance.

Sarsfield said...

I love reading these anonymous comments about the "Spirit of Vatican II" and what "most people under 50 want." I've heard that Ireland is at least 30 years behind the rest of the world and this proves it. Here in the U.S., "most people under 50" laugh at the typical "Vatican II Mass" and wonder how long the "Vatican II" crowd will continue to inflict it on us. We actually prefer the rich liturgical traditions of the Catholic Church to what, for us, is a tired old relic of the 1960s. That many Irish apparently think the "Spirit of Vatican II" is still something cool is, well, kind of quaint, like thatched cottages, leprechauns, and all that stuff.

Anonymous said...


UnaVoceLAprez said...

If supporters of Vatican II actually read the documents they would see that the council insisted that Latin be retained in the Mass and that Gregorian chant should have pride of place. But why bother with the truth when there's a revolution under way! The sacred language of our Church ensures that no matter where in the world you attend Mass you will be familiar with the worship and you feel right at home.

A time for change and moving with the times said...

In this day and age it is a bit ridiculous to listen to an old man (the only ones who possibly still have the Latin) in an alien language to us and expect to get something out of it.

You need to understand and feel the meaning of the words I think to gain anything from it so Mass in a language you understand should be the norm.

John O'C said...

Unbelievable, and I thought this no Latin Mass garbage was only going on here in the liberal dioceses of the US. Praise JMJ that the Latin Mass will now be held in the very town where my G G Grandfather once heard the Latin Mass before leaving for Canada. PB strikes again! Sorry liberal priests, your further liberalization is foiled again!

Anonymous said...

No, you simply need to get off your duff and pick up a missal like millions of Catholics before us and understand the translation. I get WAY more out of the Latin Mass than I could ever get out of freemason Bugnini's trite fabrication. In 1965 he said we must "strip from our Catholic prayers and liturgy all that separates us from our brethren, that is the Protestants". In other words, sacrifice Truth to accommodate heretics. We have seen the results of this Vatican II experiment and the Pope is moving us forward again with what was handed down to us. Can't wait for Vatican II to be eradicated as it defined nothing new and only created confusion and led people AWAY from God. Jube, Domine, benedicere.

Anonymous said...

A time for change---that's why use a missal with the Latin and English translation side by side, so you can follow along.

The Mass is perfect worship to God--it's not necessarily about you and making you feel warm and fuzzy inside. That's your problem.

David A. Werling said...

Many of the comments here by neo-Catholics demonstrates the degeneration of Catholic piety, spirituality and doctrinal understanding in the post-Vatican II era.

To say that one must understand the language of the Mass "to gain anything from it" reveals complete ignorance as to the nature of grace, and belies a complete ignorance regarding true worship.

At the center of such an understanding of the Mass is an error that places the human person in the middle as the focus of a communal activity. The Catholic Mass, however, ought to have the One True God as the focus.

Catholicism is about True Worship of the One True God. Only the Traditional Latin Mass satisfies completely this criteria. It is easy to see from the above comments that the Church has not benefited in the least by the demise of True Worship. Rather the modern neo-Catholic has no doctrinal understanding, a humanistic spirituality, bordering on the satanic, and possess serious Pelagian tendencies.

Also, it is obvious that many commenting here have never actually experienced the Traditional Latin Mass. For those of us who are intimately familiar with the TLM, we know that there is a language, a sacred language, that goes beyond words, grammar, syntax. This is a language that is tied up with the rubrics of the ancient Mass, a language that cuts beyond the material and delves into the metaphysical dimension of our encounter with the God/Man, Jesus Christ. This ancient language of words, actions, listening, watching, breathing, prayer, encounter, and most of all, grace is a language that one can only learn by frequent participation in the Traditional Latin Mass.

Mary Rose said...

From a recent "reclaimer" of her Catholic faith in the U.S.A., may I offer a hearty congratulations to those in County Mayo who now will have a traditional Latin Mass to attend. This is a blessing, indeed.

I was away from the Catholic church for 25 years. During those years, I attended mostly non-denominational churches. After my mother passed away, and after a few years of wandering (long story, you can find it on my blog), God led me back to the Catholic church.

I didn't expect to fall in love with the TLM. I visited it once out of curiosity. I was absolutely stunned by what it did to my spirit. At the time, I was 45 years old and had not ever attended this timeless and beautiful rite.

Before some of you are so quick to judge on how "relevant" it may be in our modern times, I would humbly request that you pause and think how it looks to someone coming in from the other side. I wasn't raised with a solid understanding of my Catholic identity because frankly, in the 60's and 70's, common identity was seen as stifling. It was much more acceptable to "experiment" with the liturgy. I freely admit that this experimentation only diluted Catholic identity for me, causing me to seek non-Catholic churches for that which had always existed in Catholicism; only I didn't see it at the time.

I see it now within the traditional Latin Mass. I bought a 1962 Roman Missal to learn and it's easy enough to follow the English translation on the side. I can't tell you all how much this rite means to me and how it has helped me in my faith.

I understand there are those who prefer the Novus Ordo. There are some "regular" Masses I've attended that have been reverent. But don't knock the TLM so quickly. Many of us have grown spiritually from it just as you have benefited so richly from the more modern Mass.

I recently posted on my blog an entry regarding this: Why I Love the Traditional Latin Mass. If you comment, please be respectful. I can deal with dissenting views but not rudeness.

A 20-something year old Catholic said...

Dear Anonymous, regarding those under 50... many of us PREFER the Mass in Latin, thank you very much. Perhaps you should attend one and observe the age of those in attendance. My experience is that the majority are well under 50 years old. How dare you take away our rightful inheritance in the "Spirit of Vatican II." Perhaps you should actually READ the documents of Vatican II. Having done so multiple times, I can assure you that NOWHERE is there a call to end the Mass in Latin. In fact, there is a call to keep many parts of the Extraordinary Form...something too many that are in the "Spirit of Vatican II" have failed to do.

Anonymous said...

I attend the Latin Mass in Littleton, Co., where I live. I love it and feel like I have my prayer life back, once again. There are no more distractions and am able to focus on God, which is what the Mass is all about. Confession and the Eucharist are so important here. It is easy to follow the Mass with English beside the Latin in our missals. Sincerely, Magdalen Mauldin

Time for change said...

Had 60th birthday last week so grew up with the Latin Mass.

Was glad when it changed to what it is today.

If there was a choice would still never return to the Latin Mass. To me it was always like a secret ceremony performed by the Priest that we were just observers at. Went to a Convent school always had our missals but now prefer the Mass leaflets we get each week.

I certainly don't want to go back to the past and like things with the Mass as they are.

daveorsborn said...

One of the (endless) things I love about being a Catholic is being able to participate in the beauty of a Traditional Latin mass. In this form, our churches truly become "Catholic", which means universal. How beautiful at some event such as World Youth Day that the young gathered from all points on the globe could come together in this beautiful prayer, united in one language.

Tony R. said...

"Most people under 50 would regard the Latin mumblings as alien and incomprehensible. Are the Latin Mass supporters afraid of worshipping in a language they and othr can understand?"
Most people under 50 would regard the Mass in any language mumblings.
they don't understand what the Mass is because of the so called "spirit of Vatican II". Like a Holy Priest once said that the spirit of Vatican II so many liberals speak of needs to be "exorcised".
The Church is gaining momentum and coming back from its past Glory. Hold on People of Ireland and stay with us to defend the Church.

Anonymous said...

I so wish that all the misguided souls who so freely bandy about the phrase"spirit of Vatican II" had even an inkling about what exactly that means. As a previous commenter advised,"Read the documents"! You will be amazed to find that what you so freely label the "spirit" of the council does not actually exist.

May I suggest.....
Get a good missal with the Latin and English side by side, go early, pray the Holy Spirit to open your heart and bathe your own spirit in the beautiful liturgy praising God and not ourselves.

You might be astonished at your own reaction.

God bless you.

Anonymous said...

to anonymous--The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has been reduced to a "celebration",a meal, complete right down to the altar replaced with a picnic table, vestal virgins dashing to distribute "the eucharist"and other abuses .
That is what vatican 2 brought us,replacing the bloodless sacrifice instituted by Christ.
Latin IS the universal language of the Church,truly one voice and among many,many things--anywhere you went,you had your missal in your language on one side and on the other you had the Latin liturgy regardless if you were in HongKong,Goia etc,the Mass was the Mass and not the present day mess.
Worship is not about you,it's about God.

Anonymous said...

Domine, non sum dignus. I, too, pray that the novus ordo falls by the wayside and all of the distractions go with it. Sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea.

Anonymous said...

How very sad that many of you do not know that the language of the attendants at the Latin Mass is always side-by-side with the Latin and can be easily referred to throughout the ceremony. Also, Latin was used to prevent the kinds of losses and distortions that have come to be so incredibly prevalent in the Novus Ordo (New Order--ring any bells??). The Latin Mass has therefore long been called "the Mass of the Ages." We have all to remember that the Mass is not about the glory of man, but the glory of God, and the Latin Mass is directed entirely to giving glory to God, the priest not facing man, but facing the altar and--with man facing the altar--rendering this service to God.

Cara said...

I am eighteen and enjoy the Latin very much- in prayer, music, and Mass. That being said, I don't really see much wrong with English, except that some people take the Novus Ordo form and run with it. It is unfortunate, but the whole premise of the priest facing the congregation, eucharistic ministers, holding hands during the Our Father, and the use of Protestant contemporary music during even the most solemn parts of the Mass has turned it into a mushy me-trip.
English over Latin and vice-versa is a preference, however, irreverence is irreverence, and it seems to me that the liberties taken with the Novus Ordo form have led us to that.

Norma Stone said...

The *REAL* spirit of Vatican II caused no rupture with continuity of Catholicism. The junk liturgies that were foisted on us in the 70s and 80s is pure garbage and had *NOTHING* to do with Vatican II. And now the grey-ponytailed hippies are all grumpy because no one wants their tie-died vestments and off-key folk singing any more. Go to a modern, with-it, parish and all you see are a dozen or so aging hippies. Go to a Latin Mass and it's packed with people, all under-40s with lots of children. Time will solve this problem!

Anonymous said...

We see that the Bishop needed to be cleansed of the "spirit of Vatican II" - which is disobedience. It's a pity when a successor to the Apostles must be ordered to obey Peter, the head Apostle.

albizzi said...

What a better occasion than the next World Youth Day for the Pope to say the Latin Mass: Instead of saying it in English which is far from being understood by even less than a half of the attendants, the Latin that never ceased to be the Church's universal language, would have the main asset to place everybody on the same level (instead of privileging the brits/us/commonwealth people): A missal should be printed with the prayers translation available for all. That would be wonderful!

Anonymous said...

What could anyone be afraid of? The Motu Proprio also provides that the people cannot be denied the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I loved the Old Mass as a child and teenager and had no trouble understanding what was going on. That's not the issue. At most, there will be a few Extraordinary Form Masses in town. Why are the most "progressive" Catholics ready to allow clown Masses, sign-language Masses, and Masses in every tongue under the sun but not Latin? I haven't been to the old Mass since 1969 so I'm not grinding my own personal axe. I'm just appalled at the lack of charity shown by those opposed to allowing the old form for those who prefer it.

Anonymous said...

Well done Bishop Fleming in banning the Latin Mass in his diocese.

Has the Church rejected the teaching and spirit of Vatican II to such an extent that the Latin Mass has to be said?

Most people under 50 would regard the Latin mumblings as alien and incomprehensible. Are the Latin Mass supporters afraid of worshipping in a language they and othr can understand?

"The spirit of Vatican II" does NOT forbid the Tridentine Latin Mass! 2 popes have so decreed this. THAT settles it. Don't like it? Not "progressive" enough for you? Think your own judgments are above those of the Holy See? Then you are not Catholic. Go be a Protestant and be happy.

Edwin said...

Having lived in numerous dioceses in the United States, I have found that the majority of people who are attracted to the Extrordinary Form of the Mass are those born AFTER the 1960s. It is the old geezers who lived thru the change that are most against it. My guess is that they suffered thru the change and can't take another change.

Sharbel Ferro said...

I am 28 yrs old and I love the traditional Mass with all my heart. All of us must pray for Holy Mother Church and her priests and religious. This is a sacred duty which our possession of the true faith demands of us. If any priest or bishop act waywardly, we are partly responsible because we haven't offered sufficient prayer and sacrifice. I am moved to tears by some of the sincere posts I have read on this blog. It is clear from many of our experiences that the traditional latin mass is filled with vibrant, young communities; with people who in many cases were not raised with Catholic faith but who were drawn to Catholicism through their experience of the TLM with its sublime beauty and true worship of the Holy Trinity. Concerning the novus ordo mass, none of us who see clearly how far short it falls of the solemn worship of the TLM need worry, in time it will pass away, just as monasteries and convents which say the novus ordo mass are passing away (with some exceptions), while traditional religious houses are growing and flourishing. God Bless, In Jesus and Mary.

Anonymous said...

I'm 27 and the EF Mass is the future. It is so reverent and awe inspiring. You are able to pray the Holy Mass as you are, according to where you are in your own spiritual journey. This is the Mass of St Francis, St Maria Goretti, St Alphonsus etc... I'm tired of all the abuses of the New Mass - the countless extra-ordinary Eucharistic ministers, the communion in the hand, the racous applause, the talking before, after, and even during Mass, the bad translations, the empty sermons, etc... Of course not all of this is the fault of the New Mass per se, but it is the common experience.

Anonymous said...

I'm 27 and the EF Mass is the future. It is so reverent and awe inspiring. You are able to pray the Holy Mass as you are, according to where you are in your own spiritual journey. This is the Mass of St Francis, St Maria Goretti, St Alphonsus etc... I'm tired of all the abuses of the New Mass - the countless extra-ordinary Eucharistic ministers, the communion in the hand, the racous applause, the talking before, after, and even during Mass, the bad translations, the empty sermons, etc... Of course not all of this is the fault of the New Mass per se, but it is the common experience.

Anonymous said...

I hope our Bishop here in Scotland is taking note!

Colin said...

Colin asks the anonymous who writes
Well done Bishop Fleming in banning the Latin Mass in his diocese...

Perhaps you would like to define the "Spirit of Vatican 2 ?"

The Apostle of Mary said...

I attend Holy Mass to come to our Lord and to get closer to our Blessed Mother. The Latin Mass is, for me, the most perfect way to accomplish this and be in a near-perfect state of our Lord has said it.. " My house shall be a house of prayer "

Anonymous said...

I don't know what "the spirit of Vatican II" means. But I suspect that John Vennari is right when he calls Vatican II's theology repackaged Modernism. Maybe Vatican II was a robber council?

Mike said...

Hi I am 57 and I would just like to say that I love, love, love to see all these young Catholics voice the approval for the Latin Mass. Kudos to you all.

God bless

Anonymous said...

Peace please. What a farrago. We are not clones; some will prefer one way, other another. Why attack anyone in these times who goes o mass? The language surely does not matter. but the heart. Not something to row about.

Pray rather than for this for the mess the Irish RC s in just now; these side issues are a great distraction from the real problems

The only Latin mass I have attended here in Ireland was indeed mumbled by an old priest who literally idolises Teresa of Avila, to the extent of having her huge photo ABOVE the altar.

Never went again; there was nothing holy about it.

But you know, holiness and worship are not confined to mass....

PS we do still have thatched cottages in Ireland - and I know several leprechauns also; you see them water skiing down the power lines in the deluges here.