Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has endured many difficult challenges since becoming head of the Dublin archdiocese almost a decade ago – most notably the clerical abuse scandal – but he is now facing into a fierce debate on one of the most contentious issues in Irish society. Yet despite reported death threats this week, the 67-year-old Dubliner insists in this wide-ranging interview that the Church will not compromise or back down on the issue.
This latest round in the abortion debate, which follows a Government announcement on Tuesday that legislation and regulation in accordance with the X case ruling are being planned, looks as if it has only begun.
The new law will allow for a termination to take place on threat of suicide by the mother.
The announcement provoked furious reaction from pro-life groups and, on Wednesday, the four Roman Catholic Archbishops released a joint statement in which they warned that the legislation would ‘pave the way for the direct and intentional killing of the unborn child’.
In response, a death threat was sent to Dr Martin.
It is now being investigated by gardaí, who have warned him to be careful.
But for Dr Martin, the Church’s position is not negotiable.
‘There are two lives here and we must do everything we can to ensure that we deliver both safely,’ he says. ‘We were all unborn children at some stage. At that stage, all the potential that was in us was there. We should be able to look towards a situation that stresses the protection of both, as far as possible.’
Does he believe the Government will have blood on its hands if the legislation is enacted?
‘That’s not the language that I use,’ he says. ‘But I do say that all legislators should look from a moral point of view at the fact that we can work to ensure that both mother and child can survive, if possible. If a pregnancy is actually a threat, I think there are ways of dealing with that. The Constitution at the moment is about the equal protection for mother and child. If we lose that, I think we are losing something very significant.’
What about specific cases when an expectant mother could die if her pregnancy is not terminated?
‘You can’t legislate for every case. I believe the tight pro-life situation, that we’ve had in Ireland has actually driven the medical profession to reach a very high standard. By relaxing that, things could be different. All the indications are that cases like that are very rare. The fact is, the level of maternal mortality in Ireland is one of the lowest. I’m not too sure that changing the law will actually improve that.'
‘There are always going to be cases where something happens, either the child is lost or, very rarely, the mother is lost. They are real tragedies. But we have the ability to continually to do better in those cases – to ensure healthy life for the mother and for the baby that’s being born. If we weaken that, then we are deciding that one life is more important than the other. Once that principle creeps into society, I believe it does change the whole attitude towards life. There are two lives here and we must do everything we can to ensure that we deliver both safely.'
I again push the issue of exceptional cases when a doctor believes a mother needs a termination or risks dying.
‘All the indications are they are very rare,’ Dr Martin says.
‘And in the vast majority of cases, these questions have been resolved. We have made enormous progress in reducing the level of maternal mortality. I believe that’s the main thrust we should be addressing. If you look at the particular cases of maternal mortality, only a tiny number are due actually to the question of pregnancies. There are other problems like mental health problems or other matters that can be addressed.’
But what about the risk of suicide, particularly in cases of rape?
‘I believe that there are many women who, in a particular moment in pregnancy because of a whole series of reasons, may come to think of suicide. But I would say that, of those, there are many who go through with the pregnancies and have the child and are absolutely delighted that the child is alive and they are alive. The problem of suicide is a problem right across Irish society. We’re not doing nearly enough to address it.'
‘I think if there’s a sense of caring for them, helping them, that would be the best service you can do for them. And they themselves will be happy to be parents with a happy child.’ Another contentious issue for the Church hierarchy is Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore’s championing of the legalisation of gay marriage, which he has described as the civil rights issue of this generation. When I broach the subject, the Archbishop says: ‘There are times when popular opinion may not be right. Morality can’t be built simply on public opinion polls. Parliamentarians are not elected to be herded; you give them a mandate to do what is best for the country. Sometimes, they should be able to stand up to their political leadership and even populist opinion.'
‘Marriage is something quite unique. There’s an enrichment of the relationship between a man and a woman that is unique. From a Christian point of view, from the very beginnings in the Scriptures, it says the image of God can be mirrored in male and female. That doesn’t necessarily mean that gay and lesbian people don’t have rights that have to be protected. It isn’t in denying marriage that they become second-class citizens.’
The issue of the Catholic Church handing schools back to the State will be at the forefront of debate next year, too. Will the Church be seeking financial compensation?
‘It’s a very complex question. Take, for example a school run by a religious congregation. There was support by the Government, by the local community and by the religious congregation, who’ve put a lot of money and effort back into a school – how is that to be compensated?
They may have to maintain a large number of elderly religious and so on. Some recognition of that is part of it.
‘There are legal questions as well. If money is invested for a Catholic school, from a charity point of view, can you simply hand that over to the State? I think there are creative ways in which this can be looked at, in which there will be sort of swapping rather than handing over. You don’t want either that the Government just rolls in and says, “We own everything”, and disregards generations of commitment.
‘A Government monopoly doesn’t necessarily mean things are done better. A little bit of competition is good. Even surveys done recently by the Department of Education show there is a strong interest in maintaining Catholic education, or religious education, as a pillar of a vision of plurality and patronage in Irish society.’
How well does Dr Martin feel the current Government is serving society?
‘There’s a big political challenge. You don’t know who you are voting for any more because the likelihood of any parliament is that there will be a coalition. You vote for one party and for its programme and then, when they don’t live up to that programme, you’re told: “Well, really what we are doing is the Government programme; it’s when we came together.”
‘This will bring a certain disillusionment with politics. You ask the other question – were the original aims realistic or were they simply promises or do they make plans that are possible but they know that they are never going to be realised because they’re going into a coalition?’ I mention how many irate voters are particularly angered with Labour, for doing a volte-face on many of its pre-election promises, in particular with regard to the cuts to child benefit and the respite grant. ‘There would be those on one side who’d be disappointed with Labour, there will be others disappointed with Fine Gael who made other promises,’ Dr Martin says.
‘The relationship between who you vote for and what you vote for is a little bit confused and people become very frustrated when they vote for a particular plan and it vanishes. I understand that it’s very difficult to write a budget and spend more when money isn’t there. But these across-the-board cuts are also pretty blunt instruments. You have to have some way of measuring. They should be constantly doing this, where the cuts are hurting more than they should be and where they are hurting the disadvantaged.’
The conversation moves on to the sexual abuse scandals that have rocked the Church in recent years. As he speaks about his tremendous anger towards those priests who sexually abused children, the archbishop’s voice becomes emotionally charged.
He points in my direction and says: ‘The chair you’re sitting in – an awful lot of people sat in that chair and they told me stories that they could only tell to maybe one or two other people. Stories that they weren’t able to tell for 20 or 30 years. It’s tragic to see. You see a person walking down the driveway back to where they came from after telling their story. You realise that any problems you have with loneliness and frustration are minimal compared with somebody like that.'
‘The only one way I believe you can respond to that is in a radical way – support them and ensure that, as far as you can, what happened to them will never happen again. You could ask my own people here what I look like after one of these meetings. It’s a natural reaction when you hear some of these stories to go, “Oh, my God!” Anybody who heard the stories that I have couldn’t simply say, “Leave things as they are.”
The price that people paid and are paying for what happened to them is enormous.
‘We have moved forward. Maybe it hasn’t been appreciated as to how far we and society have move forward. Those people came – whether in anger or anxiety – and told their story and they rendered a great service to society and they’ve never been recognised.’
Did he find himself facing sleepless nights after listening to the horrific stories of abuse from victims?
‘Anger would be the main feeling – made more complex by not being able to share it with anybody. You can’t talk. Because of reasons of confidentiality, at times, there’s nobody I can talk to about it. Sleepless nights? Thank God, I sleep. There were occasions but, generally, I’m pretty thick skinned. But I’m also emotional like anybody else.’
On a personal level, how difficult have the past few years been for Dr Martin with all the negativity aimed at the Church?
‘There were really difficult times for me, but I’m one of these sort of people who is given a job to do and I do it,’ he says. ‘I put my mind to it and try to dominate the field that I’m in. I’m never one to have a martyr complex. I’m never one to think: “Wouldn’t it be great to have been archbishop 20 years ago when everything was different?” You can’t live like that. It doesn’t mean you don’t get frustrated, that you don’t feel the criticism as a human being.’
He feels it’s unfair that all priests are being tarred with the same brush because of a small number of paedophiles in the Church.
‘Priests maybe feel they have been under fire disproportionately,’ he says. ‘There has been a change. I feel that in Dublin we’ve got great priests who are at the coalface. They get up every morning with great enthusiasm and they go out visiting schools and families. They are trying their best and in some cases they are doing very well.’
But what about those in the Church who either covered up cases of abuse or turned a blind eye. Do they have questions to answer here?
‘We had in the archdiocese of Dublin a small number of serial paedophiles who did immense damage and they should have been stopped at the early stages. I honestly believe that mistakes were made somehow or other, that these people deceived people and played on divisions.
‘We published our statistics last year. We did a particular one simply showing the number of people who were abused by 10 individual priests to try and get across to people that the damage was immense and the fact that they could have been abusing over decades – there was something seriously wrong in that.
It was seriously wrong that it damaged so many children.
‘We have got a good system in place; each diocese has it’s child protection norms. I’m pleased that we have a national board to monitor how progress has been made, not in a sense of policing but ensuring that the effort that’s being made is up to scratch. And that we have standards to follow and we follow them. I think that children are much safer today in the Church and Irish society by the fact that we now began speaking about something like that. Children are more sensitive, parents are more sensitive. On the other hand, what happened shouldn’t have happened in the Church of Jesus Christ and we have to take the responsibility for that having happened and we have to ensure it doesn’t happen again.’
Dr Martin acknowledges that, in the wake of the scandals, the Church faces an uphill struggle to encourage people to return to Mass. It’s one of his major concerns for the New Year.
‘If I were to get out a graph it would show the number of people attending Mass is going down and the number of young people attending Mass is going down. If I were in business, the shareholders would probably be saying, “You’ve got the wrong man in there.” You’re facing this situation and you have to try and give leadership. On the other hand, you know your own limitations.’